Thanks for Flying KLGA

[Evan Reiter]

I was quite impressed with the large number of pilots that successfully (i.e. landed in one piece) completed a least one Expressway Visual Runway 31 Approach at KLGA during this evening's Pack the Pattern event. Without a doubt, this was one of the most difficult Pack the Pattern events, and I think this charted visual approach is one of the most difficult in the U.S. We even had one A380 fly the approach (perfectly, I might add)!

 

The Pack the Pattern events continue to be one of my personal favourites because it combines the most exciting and interesting parts of flying--navigating in complex airspace on busy frequencies and in congested airspace--with the most enjoyable part of ATC: controlling and sequencing busy traffic. On multiple occasions, our three approach controllers had to coordinate in order to leave gaps for arrivals from the north and south outside of the pattern, and for the aircraft requesting the Localizer 31 approach. It was very neat to have to actively plan for other aircraft and leave holes in the sequence so that we could throw an aircraft from another direction in. And, of course, I had a great supporting cast of controllers to help manage the traffic in and around the airspace.

 

Great work and great fun everyone! See you in Vegas for the next one on June 6.

[Guest Yun Chase]

Hey Evan,

 

Sounds like you guys had a great event! :D

 

Couple of questions...

 

1) I don't know what the weather was like in NYC last night but were you accommodating VFR traffic as well or were they mostly IFR traffic?

 

2) My last experience with SFO PP event back how ever long ago that was... left a poor impression of PP as I was VFR in a 172 and I was sent on a 10 mile extended downwind to Mexico because the controllers couldn't sequence 100LL into the pattern since all other arrivals were either burning Jet-A or they had props on both sides of the cockpit... :(

 

I prefer flying 172 most of the time (outside of lengthy RC or DJ events) because it helps to compliment what I fly in the real world... But I was just wondering if you guys prefer not to have 180HP or less in PP events... :?

 

3) For IFR traffic (with respect to PP events), do they typically make full stops, file new "closed traffic" IFR flt plans and fly again or.... do they go low/missed approach and remain IFR in the pattern by radar vectors? I can't seem to visualize Packing the Pattern under IFR... because Packing the Pattern sort of implies (to me at least) that you are flying closed patterns for that single airport... just a bit confused... :?

 

May be I'll try to Pack it in at Vegas in June... :D

[Evan Reiter]

1) I don't know what the weather was like in NYC last night but were you accommodating VFR traffic as well or were they mostly IFR traffic?

While it was VMC, the configuration at KLGA does not well allow for VFR closed traffic. We permitted VFR arrivals and departures and even vectored at least one C172 into an IFR pattern for the Expressway Visual Runway 31 approach. In most cases, we do permit VFR closed traffic, and I normally try to pick airports that will facilitate that. KLAS is a good example of one that will work; so was our previous Pp at KIAH. At KIAH (and I suspect at KLAS) we had small piston VFR closed traffic operating on a third runway, with instructions to follow other aircraft and remain clear of a departure corridor. At one point on IAH_T, I had 3 piston aircraft in the pattern for one runway and had to move all three because Approach decided to send an IFR arrival in on that runway, despite the availability of 4 others...thanks a lot Domenic!

 

2) My last experience with SFO PP event back how ever long ago that was... left a poor impression of PP as I was VFR in a 172 and I was sent on a 10 mile extended downwind to Mexico because the controllers couldn't sequence 100LL into the pattern since all other arrivals were either burning Jet-A or they had props on both sides of the cockpit... :(

Yeah, SFO is a specifically difficult configuration for your aircraft type because of the wake turbulence thrown off by arrivals and departures off the 28's, and there's not a lot of room at that airport in general. Because of its configuration, SFO only has one tower controller and there's no way to split the frequency which further contributed to the difficulty. At KLAS, we should have better luck because there are 2 tower controllers, and I can envision a successful pattern on one of the 19s/1s depending on the wind (and whether you're ok with flying a C172 in the pattern on such long runways).

 

I prefer flying 172 most of the time (outside of lengthy RC or DJ events) because it helps to compliment what I fly in the real world... But I was just wondering if you guys prefer not to have 180HP or less in PP events... :?

I think that's up to the individual controller (other controllers, feel free to respond), but I enjoy working smaller traffic during Pp events, especially at some of the airports better set up for it (for example, KSLC and KFLL both have small runways that are perfect for VFR closed traffic). Part of the fun and challenege is sequencing the slower-moving pistons in with the fast-moving jets. Of course, especially while flying VFR, the Tower controller will have the ultimate say as to whether the traffic, wind, and configuration allow for VFR operations.

 

3) For IFR traffic (with respect to PP events), do they typically make full stops, file new "closed traffic" IFR flt plans and fly again or.... do they go low/missed approach and remain IFR in the pattern by radar vectors? I can't seem to visualize Packing the Pattern under IFR... because Packing the Pattern sort of implies (to me at least) that you are flying closed patterns for that single airport... just a bit confused... :?

IFR aircraft we'll do both; we've seen events where people stop and taxi back, do touch/stop and goes, or just complete one circuit. Plenty of aircraft also fly in to the airport, starting flights before the event begins so they can arrive at the peak. You're right, a "pattern" does imply VFR operations and closed traffic, which is why I normally talk about aircraft flying "circuits" rather than "patterns". Maybe the event is a little mis-named.

[Guest Lucas Kaelin]

I'm hoping the upcoming VFR SOP will significantly change how VFR aircraft are handled, and mean more touch and gos and less waiting on the ground or extended downwinds. Keep an eye out for the unsanctioned "VFR Challenge" events where the object is to operated completely outside of ATC using only pilotage and dead reckoning. Your 172 would certainly be welcome in with the rest of us.

[Guest george bruton]

Last night event was great! Very exciting and always kept you focused and planning two steps ahead. (the way I like it) ATC was great of course. But one thing...for ATC to remember on these busy and close PtP events.... There is only one guy flying the aircraft(not two) and it can sometimes take a little longer to complete task in the cockpit in order to land.

 

I know NY/LGA A got a little frustrated with me when I took to long to turn inbound for the LGA radial... and he was completely right I missed the turn. But when you are dealing with six other things that needed to be completed in order to make that turn and to have any chance of flying the visual. Not complaining but as everyone knows you can really only be pushing/turning a knob or button one at a time in FSX so it can take a little longer....something that normally would take 15 secs now has to be completed in 5.

[Dan Perrone]

Last night event was great! Very exciting and always kept you focused and planning two steps ahead. (the way I like it) ATC was great of course. But one thing...for ATC to remember on these busy and close PtP events.... There is only one guy flying the aircraft(not two) and it can sometimes take a little longer to complete task in the cockpit in order to land.

 

I know NY/LGA A got a little frustrated with me when I took to long to turn inbound for the LGA radial... and he was completely right I missed the turn. But when you are dealing with six other things that needed to be completed in order to make that turn and to have any chance of flying the visual. Not complaining but as everyone knows you can really only be pushing/turning a knob or button one at a time in FSX so it can take a little longer....something that normally would take 15 secs now has to be completed in 5.

 

I willfully admit that I was your final vectors controller last evening, and the one you likely talked to during these fast and tight turns. Unfortunately, and this is something I do not think many learned last night, the Expressway Visual is best flown by hand, and that means turning that autopilot off and putting your hands on the controls themselves. I could tell last night who was flying pure autopilot, and who was flying by hand. Those with the autopilot, like yourself, took twice as long to execute any of my instructions. I appreciate the difficulty in this, but it also behooves you as a pilot to realize I'm not going to offer leisurely turns and descents fore anyone flying the autopilot. Anyone who is flying tight patterns like those at LGA needs to be able to at least assume basic hands on control. They also need to be able to look at the approach chart, and realize what difficulty would be involved and plan ahead.

 

On that note, I didn't give anything too hard to follow. I usually gave you a descent to 2500 first, and then one turn to the radial, in two separate instructions. So really one knob at a time.

 

I'll keep that in mind for the next event, but I also ask that pilots don't expect me or any other approach controller to simply slow things down for pilots left and right. The purpose of the PtP last night at LGA was to simulate that tight turn environment and packed arrival atmosphere. We achieved that in spades, and those pilots who were unable to make that last turn on time or those who still thought 250 knots at 2500 feet in the turn to intercept the radial was ok, got taken out of the loop and put back into the sequence. Let me know if none of this really jives with what is acceptable.

 

New York is one of my favorite airspaces because of the congested atmosphere and the resulting traffic flows. I have studied the airspace flows for months on end, and seek to provide the most realistic handling to pilots in that area. Each turn and descent I gave last night was in according to real world established procedures and handling. The biggest factor contributing to he issues last night was speed. The maximum speed below 10,000 feet may be 250 knots, but this doesn't mean it is smart to be going that fast at all times below 10,000. Also,m pilots should strive to increase their situational awareness. Anyone that's on an 8 mile left downwind for the approach course should be slowing and planning ahead accordingly. Don't look like the turns and descents we give you are a surprise! You knew about what would happen, or at least you knew which directions you'd be flying for the final approach course. Situational awareness and proper speed control would have contributed greatly to increased success in the patterns last night.

 

---

 

I want to take a moment to address the VFR Cessna question. Just so happens I was also the tower controller for the PtP event at SFO before as well. I certainly welcome VFR light aircraft to the sequence all the time! It makes my job challenging and fun. But pilots who fly these aircraft need to expect that they are not the only pilots, nor do they have priority. You can expect to be in the air longer as we make holes to sequence you into the conga line. I am always up for suggestions, and always appreciate pilots who an offer to help make things easier for me as they are in light aircraft. If you have an honest, serious suggestion that migth help me, such as being able to maintain visual from another aircraft, that you notice is getting closer, or can accept an altered entry to the pattern for another runway/alternate way to the same jet runway, speak up! Chances are if it's a sound idea, and won't screw up sequencing, you'll get it approved and be on your touch and go sooner.

[Tim Brett]

We even had one A380 fly the approach [Expressway Visual 31] (perfectly, I might add)!

 

He didn't even hit a regional jet?

[Dan Perrone]

He didn't even hit a regional jet?

 

He flew near the end of the evening. I think I had three other aircraft online with him.

[Guest Yun Chase]

You can expect to be in the air longer as we make holes to sequence you into the conga line.....If you have an honest, serious suggestion...

 

Dan, this is where your experience really counts for us slow pokes...

 

If you send a VFR banner tow on a 10 mile downwind sabbatical... every extra mile that Skyhawk takes, it makes it increasingly difficult for you to make a hole for that traffic with the Jetsons... Why? Because the longer downwind simply means longer it will take to come back to the pavement... so you have no other option but to put me at the back of the line... :(

 

I earned my private ticket in Syracuse... A class Charlie airport... granted it's not a class Bravo... but it does get its share of busy waves of airline traffic (AA, JBLU, Delta, USAir etc). During my training, I spent countless hours doing pattern work even during those busy times and one of the most effective ways I found SYR Tower to keep things efficient was to make me turn 360's on downwind close to the field. By keeping me near the airport fence, he/she can immediately give me instructions to squeeze me in between Jet traffic if an opportunity arises. A few simple instructions to turn 360's and then another one to enter base to final only takes a minute or two before another jet arrival. But if I were on a 10mile downwind, I won't even have any chance to take that small opportunity... :?

 

I dunno man... All in all, your reply just doesn't give me the warm fuzzy that it'll be very fun for any 172 traffic... It sounds like it's really geared towards the turbines... The way I hear you is "if you're a 172... either give me some suggestions or it's back o' the line..." A bit discouraging since I don't plan on flying the "Pack the Pattern" event only to spend all my time in the pattern nagging at the Tower to squeeze me in some way or some how... :(

 

 

 

I'm hoping the upcoming VFR SOP will significantly change how VFR aircraft are handled, and mean more touch and gos and less waiting on the ground or extended downwinds. Keep an eye out for the unsanctioned "VFR Challenge" events where the object is to operated completely outside of ATC using only pilotage and dead reckoning. Your 172 would certainly be welcome in with the rest of us.

 

Yes! I'm very much looking forward to these VFR challenges! :D

[Guest slayer816]

I was unable to participate in this particular event, but I'll give you another perspective. And these answers are directed towards any reader; not just the poster.

 

2) My last experience with SFO PP event back how ever long ago that was... left a poor impression of PP as I was VFR in a 172 and I was sent on a 10 mile extended downwind to Mexico because the controllers couldn't sequence 100LL into the pattern since all other arrivals were either burning Jet-A or they had props on both sides of the cockpit... :(

 

I was the ground controller for that event and if my memory is correct; the 1's were unavailable due to winds leaving us stuck with just the 28's. Just the config alone was a recipe for delays. KSFO and a number of other airports (including KLGA) that we use for PP's aren't very "VFR Pattern" friendly. While we encourage VFR operations, especially with smaller prop's, at some locations IT IS INDEED FOR THE TURBINES so be prepared for delay. We WILL do our best to accommodate you but it may take awhile. You should expect likewise if you requested a pattern entry at the real world LGA (if you are even allowed to enter at all). At San Jose, I had ZERO difficulty sequencing all aircraft; this is why http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1105/00693AD.PDF It's all about the layout. To me: I don't even think Vegas is very VFR Pattern friendly...but we shall see.

 

Again, our events are spread out enough to cater to every type of individual. We have an entire event, actually coming up in a week, that is specifically for GA traffic. I would think it would be fair to say, yes we should have an event that is specifically for commercial (mostly jet) aircraft depending on the location. Especially since the majority of aircraft that fly during the PP are indeed jets. Just my opinion.

 

Pilot actions also interfere with the controller's ability to properly sequence aircraft. I won't even go into discussion about KIAH; but the more pilots (and controllers) get distracted for whatever reason, even if its because of each other, the more problematic the operation will become. By the way Chase, as you obviously know, it is Tower's duty to sequence aircraft in that situation and not TRACON which Dan was staffing. A little more space would have helped I'm sure, but its the tower controller that should have asked for it.

 

All in all; regardless of any and all variables, I firmly believe that the location and runway layout will determine the final outcome of a successful VFR/IFR sequence. With LaGuardia's runway layout, combined with the busy (and small) airspace, and one of the most difficult published visual approaches out there; I'm really surprised it worked out period. Good job controllers.

[Evan Reiter]

Those with the autopilot, like yourself, took twice as long to execute any of my instructions. I appreciate the difficulty in this, but it also behooves you as a pilot to realize I'm not going to offer leisurely turns and descents fore anyone flying the autopilot. Anyone who is flying tight patterns like those at LGA needs to be able to at least assume basic hands on control. They also need to be able to look at the approach chart, and realize what difficulty would be involved and plan ahead.

 

On that note, I didn't give anything too hard to follow. I usually gave you a descent to 2500 first, and then one turn to the radial, in two separate instructions. So really one knob at a time.

I'm sure Dan doesn't mean to suggest that the autopilot shouldn't be used while being turned on downwind to final...it's absurd to think that most jet pilots are hand-flying those turns to final in real life; I'd bet they wait until they are established on the radial/localizer inbound and then flick off the autopilot because (of coure) everything after DIALS would have to be hand-flown.

 

That being said, FSX's autopilot is nautoriously bad for managing intercepts and quick instructions. While the autopilot is very useful, Dan's correct in saying that it tends to slow people down. Part of the problem is that it's a poor simulation of realistic autoflight functionality. However, pillots sometimes wait to readback an instruction before making any control input changes. Whenever I get an instruction, sometimes even before I hear the entire thing, I've started making changes. If I'm close to the localizer and the controller says "(Evan's callsign), turn left...", I'm already changing the numbers to what I guess the heading will be, and a second after he gives me a heading to fly, it's in the MCP window. THEN I read it back. If you're doing things quickly, you might be able to compensate for FSX's autopilot.

 

George, your point is well taken. I'll take a part of the blame for this one; I had a few people too close to the final approach course for them to make a turn that wouldn't put them through the final approach (can't remember if you were one), which might have made it more difficult for you and Dan. The LGA sector is VERY small, and there's not a ton of room for people in downwind turns, especially with the departures we had off Runway 31. The screenshot below shows the airspace we have to work with; that thin middle section near LGA is all.

 

 

Too far north and Newark will start yelling; too far south and JFK would. The yellow area is where you were before Dan gave you instructions to turn (this is roughly where I gave you a descent to 4,000 and frequency change to 134.95). Eventually, you would follow the red line into Runway 31. Notice how the airspace by Runway 31 (right where you make the turn to final on the Expressway Visual) juts out a bit. That's so pilots can turn final without interfering with JFK. Also note the lead-in lights at JFK that show up as little airports; that's the route a departure from JFK's 31L/R (blue line) would fly so they are clear of arriving aircraft at KLGA. As the live radar monitor shows, when New York gets busy and uses this configuration, it's a thing of beauty. http://www4.passur.com/lga.html (try to set the time to a busy period where LGA is landing 31 and JFK is departing in the same direction).

 

In other words, LGA has a tiny sector and there's not a lot we can do to keep you inside it. That's why some of the turns were -- as Dan said -- a little faster and more furious than you may have been used to. I hope that our controllers recognized that and were able to compensate for it, if not on final approach, then in other places. I know I happily handled a few go arounds and got them re-sequenced; most times, aircraft that missed the first one got it right on the second time. And that's exactly what we're going for.

 

You can expect to be in the air longer as we make holes to sequence you into the conga line.....If you have an honest, serious suggestion...

I earned my private ticket in Syracuse... A class Charlie airport... granted it's not a class Bravo... but it does get its share of busy waves of airline traffic (AA, JBLU, Delta, USAir etc). During my training, I spent countless hours doing pattern work even during those busy times and one of the most effective ways I found SYR Tower to keep things efficient was to make me turn 360's on downwind close to the field. By keeping me near the airport fence, he/she can immediately give me instructions to squeeze me in between Jet traffic if an opportunity arises. A few simple instructions to turn 360's and then another one to enter base to final only takes a minute or two before another jet arrival.

Excellent point and suggestion. That's something I haven't been using but will consider starting it.

 

I dunno man... All in all, your reply just doesn't give me the warm fuzzy that it'll be very fun for any 172 traffic... It sounds like it's really geared towards the turbines... The way I hear you is "if you're a 172... either give me some suggestions or it's back o' the line..." A bit discouraging since I don't plan on flying the "Pack the Pattern" event only to spend all my time in the pattern nagging at the Tower to squeeze me in some way or some how... :(

Also a good point. While it's obvious that you would never be permitted to fly VFR circuits in a C172 at Class B airspace pretty much ever, for the purposes of our Pack the Pattern events, many of the VFR aircraft can mostly be treated as if they were at a Class C airport, and sometimes the traffic levels mimic a Class C over a Class B. I'd agree that we should have a better attitude toward VFR aircraft and think we (controllers) can use your suggestion of keeping you "close but not too close" so we can sequence slower-moving props in between the jets. That could apply for VFR arrivals as well.

 

While Boston is very accomodating of VFR traffic (as Bruce who's flown there in real life or any Cape Air pilot who does it daily), they are less easily able to handle slow movers during IFR days when they must be sequenced on long finals between jets. I remember listening to Boston Approach trying to vector an IFR C172 between two jets in IMC on Runway 27. I wish I had the tape, but all I remember from it is him saying "keep your speed up, don't slow down, there's traffic slowing down behind you, keep your speed up until short final". It was quite entertaining.

 

Again, at KLAS, it should be much easier than KSFO because the airport configuration will better allow for C172/slower traffic. 4 runways that can operate (almost) independently are much easier to handle than 4 crossing runways, none of which are far enough apart to be treated as separate.

[Guest george bruton]

Solo - 1st you are missing my point. 2nd - I was only using AP up to Dials and then free handed it from there. And to say that using autopilot would take longer is a little out there.

 

Evan - You get it guy.

 

The only point that I was simple trying to explain is during events like P2P everything needs to happen fast. And yes we as pilots can be prepared and know exactly what you want us to do but I can not execute anything until you officially tell me. So when I am told to turn left to 070 and intercept the 245 or 225 (cant remember) radial and descend to 2,500 and slow to final approach speed when I was just told to keep a 230 speed. You just created 10 steps that I need to now execute in the cockpit to be able to comply with the instrustions that you want to happen as soon as you request them. The issue is it is going to take me sometime to complete these tasks. It is just me flying I do not have someone else next to me to handle everything you said while I just stare out the window.