KASE Night IFR

[Guest Yun Chase]

OK, this will be my final post... :lol:

 

Yo Dev,

 

I don't think I attacked Cam's character. I made comments about his thought track and his views but not as a person himself. Apparently, he takes things way too personal....I certainly don't... and if you guys took it that way, well you shouldn't. :)

 

For you guys that don't like it, just don't fly it. End of story, nuff said. Just because we make an exception for an event, that should not in any way shape or form change who BVA is and what we stand for. Your right it isn't a game but it isn't real life either, it is a Simulation as such the parameters can sometimes be tweaked

 

Wow... Don't like it, then Don't fly it??? :o Seriously??? Is that our mantra now??? I had always thought that at BVATC, we encourage our members to make suggestions if we think somethings could be done better or even just differently.... but it's news to me that BVATC stands for... "It's the way it is and if you don't like it... just don't fly it..." Even if it takes a long thread like this, I don't think it should end on that kind of a note, do you??? :cry:

 

All I have suggested is to make the RC more realistic by following FAA's mandate of no night time published instrument approaches into KASE... why is that such a big deal??? :?

 

it is not THAT big of a deal...

 

You're absolutely right.. it is not that big of a deal! Just change the server time for the event (like Semper Fi John suggested)! ;)

 

Thank you for listening... that is, if I am allowed to speak, Devon... :roll:

[Guest Max Enis]

Okay seems like this is getting wayyyy out of hand. Chase you are wayy out of line attacking Cameron for what would be HIS opinion, and vice versa. I understand the argument here and i believe both sides are right AND both sides are wrong. I believe the reason Evan or someone from the A-team hasn't piped up yet is because this could be construed as a 'delicate' subject. You both need to cool down and probably let it slide. Luke make a very good point and i was actually just thinking that today while watching this thread heat up...y'all are so focused on Aspen being closed after 11PM and the Approaches not being allowed after dark...it is not THAT big of a deal, and it DEFINITELY does not need to result in comments on each others personal character! That is just uncalled for and childish.

 

For you guys that don't like it, just don't fly it. End of story, nuff said. Just because we make an exception for an event, that should not in any way shape or form change who BVA is and what we stand for. Your right it isn't a game but it isn't real life either, it is a Simulation as such the parameters can sometimes be tweaked

 

I agree with you Devon. But at the same time i completely dont. Chase that was extremely uncalled for, there is no need to bring Cameron as a person into this. Lets remember that are talking to a highly professional controller that contributes a lot to our community. But Chase, I do agree with a lot of your realism within BVA claims.

 

For you guys that don't like it, just don't fly it. End of story, nuff said. Just because we make an exception for an event, that should not in any way shape or form change who BVA is and what we stand for. Your right it isn't a game but it isn't real life either, it is a Simulation as such the parameters can sometimes be tweaked

 

Actually Devon, that's incorrect. At BVA we stand REALISM, and basically what you are saying is that, I know it's not realistic, but lets do it anyways. A good example is Portland (PWM). You cannot fly the harbor visual 29 at night. I have requested it and it has been declined from center controllers, so what's the difference?

 

You are also saying that basically the guys that are here to be as realistic as possible shouldn't come into fly when they are here to expect realism? Come on. I admit, I am guilty of sometimes not following airline procedures specifically, but I certainly always follow every realistic procedure. I think I speak for most of the community when I say that.

 

Please don't take this personally and I'm sorry if I come off rudely, but this is how I feel.

[Guest Jonathan Asher]

[Devon Hathaway]

Woohoo! FLAME ON! lol. Dang i haven't been part of a good thread battle in a loooong time, this is when all the good smileys get to come into play

 

Ah children, that was just my point of view, but that's sometimes my mentality, and i can say that because i am not admin and i DO NOT MAKE POLICY around here. Chase your taking it all WAYYY too seriously, your retorts seem to be based on what WE say is what goes...your wasting your breath man. How i sometimes view situations is if I don't like the rules(rules in general not particularly BVA), then I just don't participate in the nonsense (unless i have to by state/federal law...like paying Obama-taxes UGH).

 

Ameri767, I wasn't saying BVA isn't realistic or anything of the sort, i would actually say we are one of THE most professional groups out there, but we do make sacrifices on realism for some things, but it is also up to us the PIC to make it as real...or not...as we want.

 

Flame On...

[Guest Yun Chase]

Once again, let me repeat... I did not attack Cameron as a person... I made my points (albeit rather bluntly) to disagree with his views, his ideas and his thoughts, but I did not attack him as a person... I am pretty sure he is a nice guy, competent controller, community hero, angel flight pilot, local volunteer fire fighter, red cross volunteer and i am pretty sure he is a complete saint in his personal life and I should try to be half the man he is but.... I did not make any comments about him as a person in any negative way. It seems like as soon as I disagree with someone's views... all of a sudden, people think I am attacking that person... that's very unfortunate... :(

 

If he took it personal, or I hurt his feelings, then fine, I will make it up to him some way or some how... perhaps I will buy him the buffet lunch for $25 bucks at the SimCon... come to think of it... I may not be welcome at the SimCon after this fiasco so that probably won't work... :? but again, I did not attack him as a person.

 

 

...but it is also up to us to make it as real...or not...as we want.

 

Yo Dev,

I don't feel that your response suggests in any way, shape or form that it is up to "us"... it makes me feel like it's up to "you" (and the A-Team Gods) and that's the way it is ... small folks like me have no say in it... we're simply told to "don't fly it, if we don't like it"... :(

 

OK, I gotta get going now... Got a real world flight scheduled at 11AM.... hopping over to KHFD for a short instrument cross-country flight! :D

 

So until I get back, be sure to keep this thread warm! :lol:

[Devon Hathaway]

OH ITS STILL WARM BABY!!!

 

When you become a real world pilot, I fear for your passengers on the types of decisions that you might make… it really shows me your thought process as you try to explain how simple the approach can be at night… gives me goose bumps thinking about it… :shock:

 

Thats not attacking Cameron? That sounds like a pretty snide remark to me bro.

 

Lol how do you feel like that Chase? Am i admin? No. Do i make policy? No. So how could my view when i said "if you don't like it blah blah" be construed as you still shouldn't do it...i'm at a loss for common sense thinking.

 

Ok now let me lay out a base here...i do NOT want to piss anyone off (probably means i should have stayed out of this one) but i do like objective thinking threads (his view vs my view, etc.)...it is very interesting to see how people take certain things contrary to what the poster probably meant them to mean. SO!! In the end i want to still be cool with all of you. Deal?

[Guest Yun Chase]

I feel fine Bro, I feel fine. :D

 

Thats not attacking Cameron? That sounds like a pretty snide remark to me bro.

 

Nope, not in my view. Again, take it how you want but my comments were out of my attempt to understand his thought process. As he characterized the night time IAPs into KASE were as simple as he put it... I had some doubts about that... (FAA certainly did and I would agree...) But I never said he is a bad person in any way, shape or form. Again, without any doubts, I am 100% certain that he is a great person... I simply wasn't sure about his thought process...

 

Regardless of if you're the boss or not, you can continue to preach your "Dont Like It, Don't Fly It" policy... see if that will win us any new members... I am always the one to support a "Feel free to tell us how we can do it better" type of community.... I suppose that is the striking difference between you and I.

 

But I'm cool wit' you Bro, I'm cool! 8-)

 

PS: Airport called... they grounded all planes for the day...Winds are at 220/17G34... so they told me I have all day to have fun with this thread. :D

[Devon Hathaway]

Chase there's no preaching going on, I'm right there with you on ideas to make it a better community, like I said it was my opinion...lol that was the first time I've ever even said it.

 

Sucks about being grounded...that wind sounds really fun to play in and practice uber skillz :p

[Guest Yun Chase]

Chase there's no preaching going on, I'm right there with you on ideas to make it a better community, like I said it was my opinion...lol that was the first time I've ever even said it.

 

I hear ya bro, I hear ya. It's all good. :D

 

Sucks about being grounded...that wind sounds really fun to play in and practice uber skillz :p

 

It sucks the big one for sure.... But the 220/17 is all but a direct crosswind at 1B9 with only the 32-14 runway active right now. So that definitely exceeds my personal minimums. :cry: Like how Cam discussed earlier from his flight school... :) You gotta be safe... kno' what I mean? :D

[Devon Hathaway]

Yeah I know! I was up soloing one time, when I took off wind was calm, after a couple hours in the practice area I decided to head back...ATIS said wind was like 090 @ 15G29 (rwy 12 active)...I was like oh sh** now what...well gotta get it on the ground. Good line up and as soon as I had 1 tire on the ground it gusted and blew me off the runway almost slamming my wing into the ground, second try I lined up all the way on the left side and basically ran a Navy approach and flew it right into the runway. Spooky lol

[Evan Reiter]

I've been busy with real-world stuff and finally got around to reading this thread...

 

A couple of thoughts. They're just that -- not stating a new policy or speaking on behalf of the A-Team.

 

First, enforcing the 95' restriction would mean prohibiting the Boeing 737 from the field. The 6/7/8 variants are all above 100'. Every year someone decides to bring a 747, 767, A380, or something equally ridiculous into the airport. I've been one of them once so it's hard to me to say they shouldn't do that. Some folks love to fly a specific set of payware aircraft and that really makes the sim an enjoyable experience for them. Stripping that away would, for some people, detract from the experience. As much as it might be a little more reasonable to fly a B738 rather than an A380 into KASE, both are equally illegal.

 

What should the restriction be in BVA? In my opinion, that sort of depends on the reasoning behind it. If it has to do with aircraft size/weight, that's not really a consideration for us. If it has to do with space on the ramp, that's also not really an issue. However, if the spacing between the runway and taxiway "A" won't allow a wingspan above 95', that's something we would need to consider.

 

All that being said, I'd bet (but of course am not sure) that with enough money and convincing, someone having a good reason to fly a B738 into KASE IRL would probably be given a waiver. A380 might be a different story.

 

Second (with respect to the approaches question)...I have heard the SKW jet that arrives at 10:30pm request and be given a visual approach. The airport's website does say that approaches after nightfall are to be "execute[d] with air traffic control clearance". Given that there are no published approaches authorized at night, this would imply that if you don't have the requisite training you would need to fly a visual approach but could do so. The restriction for VFR aircraft at night is "VFR Operations: aircraft equipped as required under FAR 91.205 (D) for instrument flight-pilot is instrument rated; VFR pilot in command has completed at least one takeoff or landing in the preceding 12 months at ASE." (http://www.aspenairport.com/procedures.asp?type=3).

 

Given our 3h server delay and the fact that we have until 30 minutes after sunset, we theoretically shouldn't have too much night-flying time during the event. Based on the current sunset time (5:14pm local), we have until about 10:45pm ET until it's night for aviation purposes during our events. Note that in our previous event, we did not have the 3h restriction and that definitely affected matters.

 

In the 15 or so minutes of event night flying, we could restrict inbound aircraft to visual approaches only. Does that seem like a reasonable and realistic compromise?

 

Third, we were normally radar contacting aircraft around 10,000'. Aircraft were given a heading by Tower and then sent to Approach for the duration of the event.

[Guest Yun Chase]

Yeah I know! I was up soloing one time, when I took off wind was calm, after a couple hours in the practice area I decided to head back...ATIS said wind was like 090 @ 15G29 (rwy 12 active)...I was like oh sh** now what...well gotta get it on the ground. Good line up and as soon as I had 1 tire on the ground it gusted and blew me off the runway almost slamming my wing into the ground, second try I lined up all the way on the left side and basically ran a Navy approach and flew it right into the runway. Spooky lol

 

Dang dude... that's just crazy... :D

 

 

And to you Evan... the way you articulate things... you can make poop smell like perfume... ;)

 

I think you propose a great compromise. Thanks A-Team for listening. :D

[Dan Perrone]

An addition to Evan's posting above, it has been recognized by a few that listen to Denver Center on LiveATC, that there are unpublished procedures at KASE that are used by airlines which have properly certificated aircraft and aircrews to arrive at Aspen after dark. This is true, there are a number of instrument procedures at KASE which the general public under Part 91 are not allowed to view. Here's a list of the procedures (hold onto your hats, boys and girls):

• 
   
  
• GPS 15 Approach
  
• GPS 15C Approach
  
• LOC/DME 15 Approach
  
• RNAV 15R Approach
  
• RNAV 15-Z Approach
  
• GLENO1 Departure

 

You read that right. A straight up Localizer/DME Runway 15 approach, no circling. A handful of other direct to runway approaches, and even a special departure procedure.

 

Why are these not publicly available? I had a discussion on the phone with Mr. Larry Artman, Acting Manager off the FAA Northwest Mountain Region Flight Standards Division. It all comes down to safety. The approaches above are not created under Part 91, and are therefore not public information. Their release is controlled heavily by the FAA only to properly certificated aircraft and aircrews. When I asked about getting versions of these for the multiplayer simulator environment, the answer was unequivocally, no.

 

Do night operations occur at KASE? All the time. Can pilots flying on VFR rules operate into and out of KASE at night? To an extent, yes, with many more restrictions. BVA and its members simply do not have access to these charts and procedures, under regulation, that might make a difference in the perceived safety of operating into and out of KASE during the hours of night. The reason for this, as Mr. Artman and I explored, is strictly to preserve the safety of aviation. The glimpse I was given by Mr. Artman has shown that these procedures are created such that many of the normal "rules of IFR flight," if followed, could lead to injury or death. In some cases these special approaches break the rules in essence, and so they cannot be flown safely by those not properly trained to deal with them. Evan and I agree, that if it is a question between making our sim experience more enjoyable, and preserving the safety of real world flight, our decisions on these matters will always lie with safety.

 

We on the A-Team and at the ATC level take these and other factors into heavy consideration whenever we plan events like this. We believe that as a balance to realism, we make all necessary preparations, including increased training and documentation, to ensure these events go off without a hitch. Do I think we can do some things differently? of course, and I will be exploring them with the Instructors and the A-Team in the coming months for our next Aspen Getaway. But in the mean time, rest assured that we are providing the most realistic experience possible within the confines of our mission here at BVA and in keeping with the current rulings of the A-Team and the ATC Instructors.

[Guest Yun Chase]

Hey Dan,

 

Many thanks for this great insight into the operational aspects at KASE. And an added thanks for taking the time to have the discussion with FSDO to give us this valuable information. :) Very interesting indeed and it seems to reaffirm my understanding of how challenging the Published approaches can be for night time operations at KASE. Thanks again and I do rest assured that A-Team will do their best to keep the simulation parameters in check without having to compromise the virtual safety of our member pilots as we participate in these often hectic Regional Circuit events, which I tend to enjoy very much for its realism... it comes close second, right behind my most enjoyable event, which is the bad weather challenge. :D